Plan of action for first start/tune attempt?

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james92se
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Plan of action for first start/tune attempt?

Post by james92se » Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:22 am

I have read all the documentation and done some web-searches, but I'm a bit unsure of what my process should be in attempting my first start-up. A little info on my car: '93 Maxima VE30DE, 5 speed manual, Garrett t3/t4, 575cc injectors, Z32 MAF, 255 lph Walbro. I also have an Innovate LC-1 installed, which I was running while the car was N/A the past few months. I did/have not run Nistune on the car while it was N/A. Mine is a Type 3 board.

Last night I took my laptop out to the car and installed the drivers and whatnot and the cables/drivers work perfectly, I was able to connect successfully. I downloaded the ROM pack and loaded the ROM file. I became a bit confused here. Further on in the manual it says the Type 3 board is already loaded with a base image from the factory. Does this mean I was not supposed to download the ROM pack and load the ROM file as described starting on page 7?

Regardless, at this point it appeared I was "in" Nistune. I was able to click around in the various maps and they all looked populated. Assuming I'm good-to-go at this point (with having loaded the ROM file manually):

This is the point where I'm sure what my plan of action should be to try to start/begin to tune the car. It appears the general starting point is to adjust the MAF and injector settings. Should my first step be to re-size the injectors and the MAF? Since I will also be adjusting the MAF, I should check the "adjust TP scalers" box, correct? What about the cranking tables checkbox? I don't see any explanation of the cranking tables. Will this allow me to start it and observe AFR readings (assume my LC-1 is integrated prior to this)?

I appreciate any help. I haven't been able to find any Nistune tuners in the Dallas, TX area.

Matt
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Re: Plan of action for first start/tune attempt?

Post by Matt » Tue Aug 20, 2013 12:56 pm

Hi James

What happens is when you install the ROM pack, after connecting to the ECU it will match your ECU part number against that in the ROM pack automatically. So when you save the ROM file it has the original ROM pack image plus the maps downlaoded from your ECU in it

You sync from the ECU (download) and then can make changes

Do the MAF resize and the injector resize firstly. Recommend against resizing TP scales automatically for now (our tuning guide suggests manual TP scale adjustment based on maximum TP read during a load run)

[If you did resize TP scales then tick it for both MAF and injector resize, otherwise only doing one will make the scales too large or too small]

Tick the crank enrich adjustment and TTPmin/max adjustment in injector resize however

The cranking tables are basic pulsewidth based on temperature and RPM. When using larger injectors these normally need to be reduced by the % increase in injector size so the car starts (without flooding)

After this you can use the AFR meter once the car is started and adjust the injection multiplier to get your AFRs back to normal (and latency for idle adjustment)

james92se
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Re: Plan of action for first start/tune attempt?

Post by james92se » Tue Aug 20, 2013 1:49 pm

Matt wrote:Hi James

What happens is when you install the ROM pack, after connecting to the ECU it will match your ECU part number against that in the ROM pack automatically. So when you save the ROM file it has the original ROM pack image plus the maps downlaoded from your ECU in it

You sync from the ECU (download) and then can make changes
Thanks for the reply. Okay, just so I'm understanding correctly - at this point I now still need to sync from the ECU, correct? And to do that I need to go back in, and once I'm connected and have the menu icons at the top, I just need to press the green downward facing arrow?
Do the MAF resize and the injector resize firstly. Recommend against resizing TP scales automatically for now (our tuning guide suggests manual TP scale adjustment based on maximum TP read during a load run)

[If you did resize TP scales then tick it for both MAF and injector resize, otherwise only doing one will make the scales too large or too small]

Tick the crank enrich adjustment and TTPmin/max adjustment in injector resize however

The cranking tables are basic pulsewidth based on temperature and RPM. When using larger injectors these normally need to be reduced by the % increase in injector size so the car starts (without flooding)

After this you can use the AFR meter once the car is started and adjust the injection multiplier to get your AFRs back to normal (and latency for idle adjustment)
Awesome, thanks , I will do it this way. Hope to be at it this coming weekend. Just have a few more odds and ends to do before firing it up.

Matt
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Re: Plan of action for first start/tune attempt?

Post by Matt » Fri Aug 23, 2013 1:55 am

Yes - down button to get the maps out

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Re: Plan of action for first start/tune attempt?

Post by PL » Fri Aug 30, 2013 12:10 pm

Just a couple extra tips on this - I go through this all the time...

Do what Matt said plus some extra detail -

- download tune from ECU to NIStune.
- do your MAF and injector re-scaling in NIStune
- save this "tune" to a known location
- burn this tune into the ECU just in case your lose comms on cranking or accidentally turn IGN off at some stage

OK, hopefuly your tune is at a reasonable starting point now. So turn the key and see what happens. What I'd recommend is to have the K Constant (AKA Injection Multiplier) box open. Click on the number to make it active and then you can use you +/- keys to quickly adjust this once the engine fires. Or you can just use the slider bar - whatever you're most comfortable with.

If you turn the key and it sits there purring away then you're in a good place and you can start the tuning process. But if it runs like a hairy goat then you need to keep it running by working the throttle and get onto adjustments fast. If it's too rich you need to pull fuel out quickly before you foul the plugs. Or if it's too lean you'll need to add fuel to keep it running. I don't even bother looking at the AFR meter at this stage. Just move your K constant up/down and you'll be able to tell straight away which way is doing it good. Give the engine what it wants.

Once you've got it running smoothly with no load you can let it warm up and start tuning your full load vs part load/idle and fun stuff. But that's another story.

If you can't get it to basically run smoothly at this stage then it usually points to an underlying problem that needs to be fixed before continuing. AFM wiring, plumbing leaks, fuel pressure issues and all the dumbass stuff that we all get caught out by from time to time. Check your DTC codes too.

Enjoy
Pete L

james92se
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Re: Plan of action for first start/tune attempt?

Post by james92se » Fri Aug 30, 2013 1:20 pm

I did the injector and MAF resize the first day and I've started up the car a few times now, and haven't once "burned" anything into the ECU. However it appears the MAF resize stuck nonetheless. I've even unplugged the ECU today and have been in/out of Nistune numerous times and it still shows my MAF as the Z32 MAF. Does the MAF resize "stick" without "burning" it to the ECU?

I'm embarrassed to say I'm not sure/don't remember what is going on with my injector resize. I took a screenshot at some point on day 1 of my K constant, and wrote a note that the screenshot is "after syncing from the ECU and resizing the MAF, prior to resizing the injectors". My factory injectors were 259cc. That screenshot shows my K constant as 410. This leads me to believe the K constant for my factory injectors was 410. However, I notice the manual, on page 29 shows as an example a factory injector CC of 259 (same as mine) with a K constant of 768. Should my stock K constant also be 768 like in the manual seeing as the injectors are the same CC?

Basically, I'm unsure what exactly I've done to my injectors. Is there a way I can "start over" so to speak with the injector resize? Would the injector resize I did on day 1 "stick" without "burning" it to the ECU? Because like I said I haven't "burned" anything to the ECU. I will say there was one time when closing out of Nistune it prompted me that it wasn't saved and I believe it asked if I wanted to save it and I clicked yes. I will say the car does start right up and run quite well, albeit a little rough and just a little rich according to my wideband, so I suppose the injectors can't be that off. But I have still managed to confuse myself in not knowing where I stand on the current K constant. Perhaps since it starts up/runs I needn't worry about "starting over"?

Do I need to sync from the ECU each time I get into Nistune to make changes? Or was that just a one-time first-day thing?

I feel like an idiot asking these elementary questions. I read the manuals over and over and search online much of the day at work and think I have a plan of action figured out for when I get home. Then when I get home and get the laptop in the car and get into Nistune I go blank, feel unsure, and become frustrated with my inability to figure this out. :)

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Re: Plan of action for first start/tune attempt?

Post by PL » Fri Aug 30, 2013 5:06 pm

Changes will not "stick" unless you hit Burn.

If it's running OK then you're probably close to the mark and have nothing to be concerned about.

If you wish to compare to a std tune then just load a standard bin from the ROM pack (assuming you've installed it - if not just go to the NIStune website and download it.

You can load the std bin into the Comparison Image in NIStune. Then you can simply flick between your tune (loaded into Main Image" area) and the Comparison Image and see what's different. Easy!

PL

james92se
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Re: Plan of action for first start/tune attempt?

Post by james92se » Sat Aug 31, 2013 5:39 am

Thanks, I do have the ROM pack downloaded already. Each time I get into Nistune to make changes do I need to "re-sync" from the ECU first?

So - at this point, since the car starts up and runs okay, should my plan now be to adjust the fuel map to get desired AFR's? I assume the K constant is close seeing as the car starts up and runs/drives decently in non-boost driving.

Problem is I'm having trouble understanding how exactly the AFR's get adjusted. I understand the bulk of tuning is spent in the fuel maps. Page 31+ of the manual shows how to disable the 02 sensor feedback and highlight the closed loop area etc to adjust K constant.

Basically, what I seem to fail to grasp is how exactly to make adjustments to specific cells/regions of the map. For example, let's say I'm watching the AFR trace, and am showing to be lean in X region or cell of the fuel map. How exactly would I correct that specific region or cell? The manual and mapping guide refer to making fine tuning adjustments to try to reach your target AFR throughout the map. But I am unable to find in any of the three PDF guides I'm reading where it explains how to make specific fine tuning adjustments to specific areas/cells of the map. Pages 33-34 seem to indicate fine tuning adjustments are made via the K constant but I thought the K constant is a "global" setting.

Can the K constant be adjusted for specific areas/cells only? If not, how exactly would I adjust the AFR in a specific cell/region? The tuning guide says to "adjust values in fuel map to achieve desired AFR's" but I'm not seeing where it explains how to adjust the values. It has a whole section on fuel map tuning but I am unable to find where it explains what tangibly needs to be done in the fuel maps to make adjustments. What am I missing here? :?

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Re: Plan of action for first start/tune attempt?

Post by Matt » Sat Aug 31, 2013 7:21 pm

Yes you either need to sync from your last saved changed on the laptop to the ECU or from what is currently running in to the ECU to your laptop

Either way the laptop maps you are seeing must match the ECU prior to tuning!

Once your car is running okay and your AFRs are close to the original AFRs prior to the resize throughout the rev range (after injection multiplier is adjusted) then you can start on the fuel maps next. Yes K constant should be close if most of the off boost AFRs are near to before

You need to look at your AFR trace (or dyno curve AFR display) to see where it is running leaner/richer than expected and then adjust the cells in the 'fuel map' that area (eg select a bunch and use +/- to adjust) and then do another run to monitor the updated AFRs based on your changes.

K constant only affects all the map, not specific regions. It will affect your TP (load positioning) in the fuel map if adjusted greatly

james92se
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Re: Plan of action for first start/tune attempt?

Post by james92se » Sun Sep 01, 2013 6:02 am

I feel like a total moron but I am still not clear on this, I appreciate you and PL's patience to help me through this.

Okay, I was adjusting my injection multiplier to get my idle/low load AFR's in good shape. I then "burned" that to the ECU and shut the car off to go eat, when closing Nistune I got this prompt:

Image

I clicked "no" on the save prompt as I was thinking it might "overwrite" the ROM pack I saved from the Nistune site. Should I have clicked "yes"? I was under the impression the ROM pack is static so why does this prompt me to save it even after I burned the tune to the ECU?

Along the same lines, what is the difference between Nistune displaying "ECU downloaded maps" in the top left drop down vs displaying the file name from the ROM pack? I see when I sync from the ECU it changes to "ECU downloaded maps" and when I sync to the ECU it changes to the ROM pack file name.

Anyway, I have noticed this morning that I am constantly getting a 34 DTC knock sensor code in Consult anytime I touch the gas. I can start it up and let it sit there and idle for 15 minutes with no codes. As soon as I touch the gas the knock sensor code pops up. It can be idling at 800, and if I rev it up even to 1200 RPM or so, the code pops up instantly. I tried this about 5 times and it was consistent popping up the code each time I gave it gas.

I don't know why this would be happening as my knock sensor AND harness are band new OEM. VE30DE's are notorious for heat soak/knock sensor harness issues so I made sure to install brand new OEM stuff for this project. I read in another thread from a few years ago where you said the knock sensor DTC code isn't because the sensor is detecting knock, it's that typically there is a short/loose connection somewhere. I have some resistors left over from a bad KS experience years ago on my other Maxima when I had to bypass the KS, so I stuck one of those in the ECU-side connector in the engine bay and could not get the code to re-appear when giving it gas.

So this means the ECU is somehow seeing "fault" with the brand new KS and harness? I really don't want to leave a resister in there permanently especially on a turbocharged engine.

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Re: Plan of action for first start/tune attempt?

Post by Matt » Sun Sep 01, 2013 10:56 am

You missed one of PLs steps
save this "tune" to a known location
You are correct that if you had saved it, you would have written over a ROM pack file. So you do a 'save as' in future to keep a copy of your tune on the PC

What you can do is restart Nistune and download the file again and 'save as' still

ECU downloaded maps just means that it has overwritten what maps were currently loaded with the ECU ones. You will be required to 'save as' in that circumstance. If you load a ROM file and uplaod, it will still keep the original ROM file in the file name box becuase nothing on the PC was overwritten

You have a knock sensor fault. Diagnostics in the ECU is detecting it once TPS goes off idle. You need to check your knock sensor resistance is around the 500K ohm mark using a multimeter and check your wiring. Do not tune further until this is rectified

If you suspect it is good then remove the ECU and measure the knock sensor pin(s) on the ECU against ground using a multimeter because it thinks the resistance is out of range

james92se
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Re: Plan of action for first start/tune attempt?

Post by james92se » Sun Sep 01, 2013 1:39 pm

I will do some testing on that with my multimeter tomorrow, but again I can't imagine it being bad as it's a brand new OEM part.

Now, after I put the resistor in there I was watching the maps while it was sitting there idling, and even with the resistor and just sitting there idling the car would flip back and forth between the main fuel map and the knock map. Why would it be accessing the knock map if there was a resistor in-line "fooling" the ECU into thinking all is well?

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Re: Plan of action for first start/tune attempt?

Post by Matt » Mon Sep 02, 2013 11:16 pm

May be your wiring, which is why you check at the ECU plug

james92se
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Re: Plan of action for first start/tune attempt?

Post by james92se » Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:35 am

Alright, well I'm pretty frustrated. I can't access the knock sensor directly because it's totally inaccessible and a total PITA job to do, but it does have the sub-harness like I said above, so I have to test it at the sub harness juncture at the water pipe. Saturday morning I tested the knock sensor at 562k ohms. Perfect.

I went on to inspect the wiring back to the ECU and couldn't find any issues. I had to quit for the day so Sunday morning I got back to it. I tested the knock sensor again and the multimeter doesn't register anything at all. Wtf. Tried it again today multiple times and still doesn't register anything. Can a knock sensor possibly go bad all by itself overnight?

Nonetheless, I stuck a 470k ohm resistor in the sub harness, then tested back at the ECU plug and got proper resistance there which confirms the ECU to subharness wiring is good.

Still don't know why even with the resistor stuck in there, and wiring confirmed good, the ECU would access the knock maps? Am I wrong in assuming the ECU would ONLY access the knock maps when it thinks there is knock?

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Re: Plan of action for first start/tune attempt?

Post by PL » Tue Sep 03, 2013 2:09 pm

You're right - once you've fitted a resistor the ECU should never jump to knock maps.

PL

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