sr20det e85 1.4bar

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unex
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sr20det e85 1.4bar

Post by unex » Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:22 pm

Not very much to show, but still, dyno charts maybe for somebody will be interesting. SR20DET running on e85. With 1.3bar boost done 450hp and 450nm, with 1.4bar boost done 480hp and 480nm. It's not opened engine covered about 160kkm and still with stock internals, so Im running now about 1.2bar boost. Using it for the drift.

Main engine mods are:
Top mount china exhaust manifold (cracks every event, so it will be changed this winter)
external wg (with screamer)
Holset HX35 7 blade cold side, and garrett 0.48a/r hot side
HKS 256/256 cams
76mm exhaust
Z32 AFM
60mm throttle
not biggest FMIC
850cc injectors
Walbro 255lph in tank and Bosch 044 external fuel pumps

And of course it runs Nistune. Works perfectly. Thanks for Matt and Pete for every answer to my questions (a lot of questions :) ).

Torque chart: Image HP chart: Image
Last edited by unex on Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

s13_silvia_redtop
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Re: sr20det e85 1.4bar

Post by s13_silvia_redtop » Sun Jan 20, 2013 7:27 am

cant believe no ones posted in this. i have almost the same setup (as you know) but with a built motor. i have been talking to my roommate about switching to e85 soon, he runs it on his mustang. and i have been doing research and have found that it can significantly help. i will have two or three maps i will be changing from, a 91 octane tune for driving around school and stuff, a 91 highway tune for going and coming from school (two hour drive), and one for e85. i might roll the two 91 tunes into one. either way on e85 im looking at running about 1.9 bar, and hopefully being well into the 500 range. do you have any regrets with running e85? i feel like if i have the access to e85 in both my towns and have the tuning ability to quickly change maps why not run it?

unex
Posts: 79
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 6:59 am

Re: sr20det e85 1.4bar

Post by unex » Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:58 pm

s13_silvia_redtop wrote:cant believe no ones posted in this. i have almost the same setup (as you know) but with a built motor. i have been talking to my roommate about switching to e85 soon, he runs it on his mustang. and i have been doing research and have found that it can significantly help. i will have two or three maps i will be changing from, a 91 octane tune for driving around school and stuff, a 91 highway tune for going and coming from school (two hour drive), and one for e85. i might roll the two 91 tunes into one. either way on e85 im looking at running about 1.9 bar, and hopefully being well into the 500 range. do you have any regrets with running e85? i feel like if i have the access to e85 in both my towns and have the tuning ability to quickly change maps why not run it?
I am happy with e85. Maybe would not recommend for daily, because you need to change oil very often, but if its not a problem for you - use e85. Its safer.
I am too have two maps. One for e85 other for 98ron, but I would not recommend to change the maps every day, because your fuel tank will not be dry every time, so fuels will be mixing. The car will be struggling for a while, and your tune should be very safe then. I am switching it only on winter/summer change.

s13_silvia_redtop
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Location: tulsa, ok

Re: sr20det e85 1.4bar

Post by s13_silvia_redtop » Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:30 am

yea, i wouldnt be changing it a lot. i would usually prolly run the 91 tune but run e85 if there was an event or somthing a long those lines. i think ill be getting free oil for awhile so thats nice!

PL
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Re: sr20det e85 1.4bar

Post by PL » Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:55 am

Probably a good place to cut and paste my ongoing "E85 tuning notes" file:

E85 is awesome! But it does have downsides.

Good:

1) Gives you about 20% more power than equivalent 98 tune
2) Gives a big insurance policy for track cars cos it suppresses detonation
3) Allows you to push your turbo that bit harder without risking detonation - perfect for small turbos
4) It's VERY flexible to tune. IGN timing and mixtures are nowhere near as critical as petrol
5) Smells great!

Baaaad:

1) Can lead to fuel system corrosion. No big deal - when you switch over, replace fuel filter until grunge dissapears cos it dissolves any rubbish from the bottom of your tank into the fuel. I recommend doing this twice - once after tank 1 and again after tank 2. Clean sock on bottom of fuel pump pickup too.
2) You'll use about 30% more fuel
3) It attracts water, so you can't leave it sit around. Fine for daily drivers. Bad for track cars. You really should drain your tank and store it in a sealed container between meets
4) Because of 3) it can be inconsistent. If it's been sitting in the bowser tank for weeks then it's useless and you will not make the power
5) Oil contamination can be an issue, so regular oil changes are the go. Particularly bad if the car is used for short runs and doesn't get to warm up properly. On longer runs the contamination will tend to boil off.

The serious guys here in Aus won't buy it from the servos due to 4). They get it from race fuel suppliers in 200l drums and keep it sealed.

As a very rough guide you can add 5 to 10 degrees timing everywhere. Most engines will not detonate on E85. The torque simply starts to decrease. So you can't tune by listening for detonation and then backing off timing. You won't hear any. It's a bit creepy the first time you do it! I usually just add timing until I stop seeing gains.

Tuning E85 is best done by using lambda values rather than AFR. Otherwise you can get messed up. I tune for 0.82 to 0.84 lambda. On an AFR meter setup for petrol this will read around 12.4 AFR unless you can adjust stoichiometric point for the wideband from 14.7:1 to 9.7:1. In reality E85 isn't critical when it comes to mixtures. I've found that I can tune much richer or much leaner than ideal and power often won't be affected. EGT's would be higher when tuning leaner though, so I still tend to tune rich if it's not costing me power. Mixtures are also affected by fuel temperature more with E85. Hotter fuel will run leaner. Once again, tune rich and give yourself some insurance.

I haven't done this but it would be worth using EGT to tune as well. Theoretically you should add timing to keep EGT's within a safe range.

I did an S13 SR20 the other night on E85 and it worked out extremely well. Owner built ghetto spec engine with used pistons. 260 degree Tomei Procam on inlet, 256 degree Poncam on exhaust (long story...). 650cc injectors, Z32 AFM, Garrett 52 trim 2871R. Damn thing made over 500nm (on Dyno Dynamics dyno in shootout mode) on 20psi up front and boost dropped back to around 18psi at higher revs to give 275rwkw. Which equates to about 460hp. Not bad! Same setup on 98 RON is usually good for around 240 to 250rwkw.

I'm doing another S13 SR with 2871 on E85 tonight, so it'll be interesting to see if that one does as well. The one above, although owner built, was a recently freshened engine, so I suspect tonight's job won't make those numbers as it's a well and truly used and abused drift engine that's done many seasons. We shall see.

Enough from Uncle Pete. I've hijacked your thread enough...

PL

unex
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Re: sr20det e85 1.4bar

Post by unex » Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:07 pm

Everything is sooo true what you have said ! I will add just few my thoughts.
PL wrote: 1) Gives you about 20% more power than equivalent 98 tune
from tunes, what I have saw, I would say you in Australia have better quality 98 than we have here in Lithuania. And e85 gave me about 25% more power. Added I think 8 degrees ign and it wasnt the limit. Was scared to add more :D
PL wrote:5) Smells great!
This point I like the most :mrgreen:
PL wrote:Baaaad:
2) You'll use about 30% more fuel
Why this is bad, apart that you need bigger injectors? I would say this is just fact unless you are going to 24h race or something :D Here e85 is cheaper aprox at the same 30%. How about you ?
PL wrote: 5) Oil contamination can be an issue, so regular oil changes are the go. Particularly bad if the car is used for short runs and doesn't get to warm up properly. On longer runs the contamination will tend to boil off.
3) It attracts water, so you can't leave it sit around. Fine for daily drivers. Bad for track cars. You really should drain your tank and store it in a sealed container between meets
so, 3) point I would say it depends on how much you drive. Maybe we should not divide by track or daily, because you can use your track car every weekend, and your daily could be just few miles from home to job. Just to make clear.

PL wrote:I tune for 0.82 to 0.84 lambda. On an AFR meter setup for petrol this will read around 12.4 AFR unless you can adjust stoichiometric point for the wideband from 14.7:1 to 9.7:1. In reality E85 isn't critical when it comes to mixtures. I've found that I can tune much richer or much leaner than ideal and power often won't be affected.
The same here. Also I tried to play with mixtures on boost transition, but 0 results. Does it possible to make it spool up faster changing mixtures ? Maybe ign? Any advice?

PL wrote:I've hijacked your thread enough...
This thread now balanced with theory and practice :D

s13_silvia_redtop
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Re: sr20det e85 1.4bar

Post by s13_silvia_redtop » Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:07 am

Pete, i can across a similar post from you somewhere else and enjoyed the insight, and its great to see that you're having
success with e85! im going to get my car dyno tuned here this week most likely and idk what tune to get yet. one for 91 or one for e85? or maybe both if its cheap enough :D

PL
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Re: sr20det e85 1.4bar

Post by PL » Fri Jan 25, 2013 1:10 pm

PL wrote:The same here. Also I tried to play with mixtures on boost transition, but 0 results. Does it possible to make it spool up faster changing mixtures ? Maybe ign? Any advice?
I really haven't been able to achieve anything significant in the spoolup area. Cut and paste from one of my other posts regarding an E85 tune involving a NEO RB25 with 3076:

I'd heard that you can get them on boost quicker by reducing timing in the boost transition area with E85. I just had to try this! Started with the usual figures of 25 to 30 degrees. I removed 4 degrees at a time and did a run. Boost came on noticeably quicker on the graph. So I kept removing timing - now 8 degrees at a time. I got down to about 5 degrees when the engine refused to play my silly game any longer! But it was very interesting - boost came on earlier every time down to about 10 degrees. Trouble is the engine doesn't like running with such low timing figures, so even though we got boost to come on a lot earlier, the engine was making less power. So I increased timing to about 20 degrees which gave the best compromise of boost response and actual power. Still gotta optimise this further on the road.

I finished that S13 E85 tune that I mentioned yesterday. Internally std S13 SR20DET with 52 trim 2871, 264 cams and ext WG. 288rwkw on 19psi - on Dyno Dynamics dyno in shootout mode. Amazing. On a tired old engine. That's like 480hp at the crank. Dunno how long she's gonna last...

PL

s13_silvia_redtop
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Re: sr20det e85 1.4bar

Post by s13_silvia_redtop » Fri Aug 30, 2013 11:18 am

Unex, im curious to know what timing you are running in the boost transition area and at full boost? just curious to see how we compare. or if anyone else knows roughly what a good timing number should be at for e85 in those areas i think around 10 is what i have currently in the transition area.

unex
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Re: sr20det e85 1.4bar

Post by unex » Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:36 am

s13_silvia_redtop wrote:Unex, im curious to know what timing you are running in the boost transition area and at full boost? just curious to see how we compare. or if anyone else knows roughly what a good timing number should be at for e85 in those areas i think around 10 is what i have currently in the transition area.
I can guarantee you, that every engine is very different even with same mods, not talking when it have different mods and especially different turbo. On transition area I think I have something about 19, and on full boost on rev limiter its about 13. This is aprox values.

unex
Posts: 79
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Re: sr20det e85 1.4bar

Post by unex » Sat Sep 21, 2013 3:00 am

changed turbo to HX32 (i think its the same hx35 super), changed exhaust manifold and changed wg from china to tial. At almost 1.4bar boost 470hp and 510nm with e85. Its almost the same, as I had before, except that now everything comes earlier by 500rpm, and have a little bit more NM. I like this setup very much, turbo is very very nice for this power range.

Turbo specs are:
Housing is 100 inlet and 50 outlet, I think its 0.60 A/R, not sure for that.
Compressor inducer - 55mm
Compressor exducer 76mm
Compressor trim - 52
Turbine inducer 64mm
Turbine exducer 52mm
Turbine trim - 66

Wanted to get a little bit smaller turbine inducer (something about 60mm), but this was the smallest what they had here. Not sure, but I think its 8cm3 housing.

And I did some tests with VCT, you can see in this dyno. When VCT turns off ~5200rpm, you get LESS mid range, but MORE in hi range. When VCT turns off at 5800rpm, you have MORE mid range, but it goes down in hi range.
Image

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