Just don't adjust injector latency unless you absolutely have to!!!
PL
Basic Tune, K / Lat. for 550cc Can't get it smooth!
Moderator: Matt
When I start adding fuel, will I exclusively add values over 128 to add fuel in the RAW table? Meaning, Will i need any reason to ever use any RAW values under 128?
So, when adding fuel I should focus on theoretical AFRs on that filtered view and adjust VE until the actual AFR reaches the theoretical. Will moving VE values lower than 128 result in richer actual AFRs?
So, when adding fuel I should focus on theoretical AFRs on that filtered view and adjust VE until the actual AFR reaches the theoretical. Will moving VE values lower than 128 result in richer actual AFRs?
the later model VE table enabled ECUs seem to have what we use as the O2 sensing flag enabled for the entire Fuel map
I dont think you shuold be turning this off in the map (only on the O2 feedback switches tickbox) because Nissan left them on the entire map
Use the VE table to trim the fuel richer/leaner rather than adjusting the fuel map
From experience changing either map will adjust your injector pulsewidth around those cells, but best to adjust the VE map if the fuel map is showing your desired AFRs already
I dont think you shuold be turning this off in the map (only on the O2 feedback switches tickbox) because Nissan left them on the entire map
Use the VE table to trim the fuel richer/leaner rather than adjusting the fuel map
From experience changing either map will adjust your injector pulsewidth around those cells, but best to adjust the VE map if the fuel map is showing your desired AFRs already
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Two40sPlease
- Posts: 36
- Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2008 8:02 am
Did you guys ever make a writeup on the procedure for adjusting the VE map. How much to subtract or add from ve if your say cammanding 10.5 to get 11.5?Matt wrote:the later model VE table enabled ECUs seem to have what we use as the O2 sensing flag enabled for the entire Fuel map
I dont think you shuold be turning this off in the map (only on the O2 feedback switches tickbox) because Nissan left them on the entire map
Use the VE table to trim the fuel richer/leaner rather than adjusting the fuel map
From experience changing either map will adjust your injector pulsewidth around those cells, but best to adjust the VE map if the fuel map is showing your desired AFRs already
When we know for sure how the VE maps work then we'll add some words to the documents. It's hard to write down what you don't know! 
I tuned that GA16DE+T last night. I still don't know how the VE maps work though. Finished up leaving the VE maps and tuned using the fuel maps. Worked OK. Got good full load mixtures and IGN maps sorted.
So it runs OK but I couldn't get low load mixtures to respond - still too rich. I'm thinking that lowering K constant may be the only way to achieve that. Ran out of time (after using 3 hours on dyno). So full load is good. He wants to take it to the track so this bit was important. He's also a young fella so he wanted to see that magical peak power number above anything else.
PL
I tuned that GA16DE+T last night. I still don't know how the VE maps work though. Finished up leaving the VE maps and tuned using the fuel maps. Worked OK. Got good full load mixtures and IGN maps sorted.
So it runs OK but I couldn't get low load mixtures to respond - still too rich. I'm thinking that lowering K constant may be the only way to achieve that. Ran out of time (after using 3 hours on dyno). So full load is good. He wants to take it to the track so this bit was important. He's also a young fella so he wanted to see that magical peak power number above anything else.
PL
So far i haven't really figured out VE either. But I'm getting a fairly stable AFR at idle now, and cruising. I wrote my whole VE map with 128 to try to avoid any kind of inconsistency at low load and idle. Went out and got the K-value again this way, leaving the latency alone at 600uS.
I imported the S14 DE fuel map, but took the Low RAW values and added 127 to them. Surprisingly this got me very close to a decent map. Only problem is down low while it's initially spooling stays stoic too long. The UEGO is a tad laggy, but not that much. After it spools it was running down into the 12.0s, so that's a fairly safe mark, the leanest I would want to go though.
Indicated AFRs in that area on the fuel map say it should be about 10.0, so calibrating VE may help in that area....
I found a map that has an even more moderate Timing map than the S14 DET, so I think I'm ok in that area.
I was looking at the Knock sensor panel, and I'm getting knock warning while revving at low load. I really think this has to be a phantom knock. Is there any way to filter knock sensing for > 2500 RPM? Maybe possibly sending feedback to a dash light when it senses knock. DSMlink has this feature.
I imported the S14 DE fuel map, but took the Low RAW values and added 127 to them. Surprisingly this got me very close to a decent map. Only problem is down low while it's initially spooling stays stoic too long. The UEGO is a tad laggy, but not that much. After it spools it was running down into the 12.0s, so that's a fairly safe mark, the leanest I would want to go though.
Indicated AFRs in that area on the fuel map say it should be about 10.0, so calibrating VE may help in that area....
I found a map that has an even more moderate Timing map than the S14 DET, so I think I'm ok in that area.
I was looking at the Knock sensor panel, and I'm getting knock warning while revving at low load. I really think this has to be a phantom knock. Is there any way to filter knock sensing for > 2500 RPM? Maybe possibly sending feedback to a dash light when it senses knock. DSMlink has this feature.
Hey Ryan,
Yeah, I did similar things - 128 in all the low load cells.
Sounds like you may need to play with the values in your fuel map a bit in the transitional boost area. This is a common thing with turbos. Make sure your load scale is adjusted so it actually gets over to the right part of the map too. A rule of thumb that I use is to have it accessing the middle of the map at 0 psi boost.
Not sure on the knock sensing - it's still under development. We had quite a bit of phantom knock the other night while tuning Matt's RB30.
PL
Yeah, I did similar things - 128 in all the low load cells.
Sounds like you may need to play with the values in your fuel map a bit in the transitional boost area. This is a common thing with turbos. Make sure your load scale is adjusted so it actually gets over to the right part of the map too. A rule of thumb that I use is to have it accessing the middle of the map at 0 psi boost.
Not sure on the knock sensing - it's still under development. We had quite a bit of phantom knock the other night while tuning Matt's RB30.
PL
Ok, i've got the load scale pretty close to the middle at 0 psi. My problem now is that the more value I add to the top-end the actual AFRs make no difference at all... I've gone from RAW 167 (12.0 actual) to 210 (12.0-12.5 actual) This makes no sense to me at all. I've verified with logging and map trace that it's accessing the cells where I've added fuel. And it's not black smoking at all, so I know it's actually not pig rich and the wideband isn't giving false readings.
I pulls like a mother at 7psi, breaking the crappy tires loose. No knock, but still leaner than i'd like.
Maybe I should revert back and try using values 127 or under for the top end. I'm about to just set it to 255 and see if it's still not getting rich!
Ideas?
PS: I've been driving the car a bit to work. 300 miles now and going strong. Just have avoided much WOT b/c it's a little leaner than I would like.
I pulls like a mother at 7psi, breaking the crappy tires loose. No knock, but still leaner than i'd like.
Maybe I should revert back and try using values 127 or under for the top end. I'm about to just set it to 255 and see if it's still not getting rich!
Ideas?
PS: I've been driving the car a bit to work. 300 miles now and going strong. Just have avoided much WOT b/c it's a little leaner than I would like.
OK, i tried setting the values up top ridiculously high with NO change in AFR. It seems it's holding o2 feedback, but I have no idea what it's reading from to put that amount of fuel in...
Any news on VE?
I took the car out again trying to play with WOT.
With o2 sensing enabled in Feedback Controls:
1. Changing all fuel values to 0-127 Range (fuel up top as high as 110)
Stays completely stoic when it runs into that theoretical Pig rich range.
2. Values idle down low set 0-30, Up high set 192+ Rich range was 220.
The more you add up top, the AFR stays exactly the same (12.5 - 13.0)
3. Changing all values 128-255
Need to test this again, but I believe last time i did it was the same as 1
With o2 sensing disabled in Feedback Controls:
Idles a little richer than stoic, when pushing on the gas at idle it leans out hard. Changing the values down low to as high as 127 and 220 does not add, or even seem to do anything in the level with fuel in that cell range.
Other strange things:
The Knock Fuel Map, and Knock Timing maps are always red/pink, even after resyncing the ECU and writing perm changes.
I loaded the s14 det addr file just to play with some things and noticed that 192 is a stoic value. However, with the g20 address 192 is a rich value over stoic (128)
I think what i really need to know is how to indicate open loop / closed loop for this ECU through the load range. I need closed loop down low, but open loop up top so that fuel is easily modified up top without interference with the o2 sensor....
Any news on VE?
I took the car out again trying to play with WOT.
With o2 sensing enabled in Feedback Controls:
1. Changing all fuel values to 0-127 Range (fuel up top as high as 110)
Stays completely stoic when it runs into that theoretical Pig rich range.
2. Values idle down low set 0-30, Up high set 192+ Rich range was 220.
The more you add up top, the AFR stays exactly the same (12.5 - 13.0)
3. Changing all values 128-255
Need to test this again, but I believe last time i did it was the same as 1
With o2 sensing disabled in Feedback Controls:
Idles a little richer than stoic, when pushing on the gas at idle it leans out hard. Changing the values down low to as high as 127 and 220 does not add, or even seem to do anything in the level with fuel in that cell range.
Other strange things:
The Knock Fuel Map, and Knock Timing maps are always red/pink, even after resyncing the ECU and writing perm changes.
I loaded the s14 det addr file just to play with some things and noticed that 192 is a stoic value. However, with the g20 address 192 is a rich value over stoic (128)
I think what i really need to know is how to indicate open loop / closed loop for this ECU through the load range. I need closed loop down low, but open loop up top so that fuel is easily modified up top without interference with the o2 sensor....
I found when using the Resize injector calculator it changes MAX TTP to this line
72 72 76 77 80 80 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255
Those 255s seem WAY off what they should be, what would cause this? And what symptoms would this cause?
EDIT: I changed and tested this value under WOT, Same Symptoms. Except this time I saw it dip to 12.0, and then work itself back up to 14.7 while under boost... wtf..
This was with 70s RAW values up top. I'll try it with 128+ values later, it's too hot outside!
72 72 76 77 80 80 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255
Those 255s seem WAY off what they should be, what would cause this? And what symptoms would this cause?
EDIT: I changed and tested this value under WOT, Same Symptoms. Except this time I saw it dip to 12.0, and then work itself back up to 14.7 while under boost... wtf..
This was with 70s RAW values up top. I'll try it with 128+ values later, it's too hot outside!
Hey Ryan, it's Terry.
Pink indicates which maps the ECU is reading from. you forgot that our ECU's only access the knock maps didnt you? sometimes it gets me too. that's why none of your changes have had any effect. i like to make changes in the regular fuel maps and then copy to the knock maps.
Also, when i am setting my k value, i enter my desired AFR's under WOT. i adjust the k until my actual AFR's match the desired AFR's under WOT.
I make sure the high load areas of the map are 0-127 raw so it wont ever be affected by the o2 sensor. in the drivability range of the map, i just use the 128+ raw values, set to stoich and let the O2 sensor do all the work after i turn the 02 flag back on. it seems to self learn that area pretty well and i end up with stoich cruising AFR's, stoich Idle, and my exact desired WOT AFR's.
the only tricky bit is the boost transition area. it also seams to be the area that transitions from closed loop to open. I'm planing to adjust the VE map to get my desired AFR's in this area.
Terry
Pink indicates which maps the ECU is reading from. you forgot that our ECU's only access the knock maps didnt you? sometimes it gets me too. that's why none of your changes have had any effect. i like to make changes in the regular fuel maps and then copy to the knock maps.
Also, when i am setting my k value, i enter my desired AFR's under WOT. i adjust the k until my actual AFR's match the desired AFR's under WOT.
I make sure the high load areas of the map are 0-127 raw so it wont ever be affected by the o2 sensor. in the drivability range of the map, i just use the 128+ raw values, set to stoich and let the O2 sensor do all the work after i turn the 02 flag back on. it seems to self learn that area pretty well and i end up with stoich cruising AFR's, stoich Idle, and my exact desired WOT AFR's.
the only tricky bit is the boost transition area. it also seams to be the area that transitions from closed loop to open. I'm planing to adjust the VE map to get my desired AFR's in this area.
Terry
Hi Hanzzzzz
Is Nistune showing your fuel tables backwards do you think?
If the changes are working in the knock map then perhaps I should be swapping these addresses backwards?
HIGH_FUEL,&HE100,16,16,256,1,High octane Fuel map
REG_FUEL,&HEE00,16,16,256,1,Reg octane Fuel map
That would be why terry is having issues because he is changing the map which the ECU isnt using then?
We were at the dyno for about 3 hours fixing problems and tuning but didnt get around to doing the VE. We have some more tuning to do on that car so VE map will have to be fox next time (we had O2 feedback off)
The TTPMax table you see is set like that after resize injectors is done inside nistune and 'adust TTPmin/max' is ticked. It sets the upper end to maximum as part of the rescaling operations
Is Nistune showing your fuel tables backwards do you think?
If the changes are working in the knock map then perhaps I should be swapping these addresses backwards?
HIGH_FUEL,&HE100,16,16,256,1,High octane Fuel map
REG_FUEL,&HEE00,16,16,256,1,Reg octane Fuel map
That would be why terry is having issues because he is changing the map which the ECU isnt using then?
We were at the dyno for about 3 hours fixing problems and tuning but didnt get around to doing the VE. We have some more tuning to do on that car so VE map will have to be fox next time (we had O2 feedback off)
The TTPMax table you see is set like that after resize injectors is done inside nistune and 'adust TTPmin/max' is ticked. It sets the upper end to maximum as part of the rescaling operations