R33 Type 6 boards

Nistune topics specific to the H8534/H8536 cpu

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skyline_stu
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Location: Wide Bay Queensland

R33 Type 6 boards

Postby skyline_stu » Thu Oct 17, 2013 4:29 am

Hi Everyone,
I thought I'd let you all know I have managed to develop a daughterboard for the H8/534 family of ECU's.
I have a working prototype that uses an emulator and I'm working towards a realtime version for use with Nistune.

The biggest hurdle has been the difficulty in sourcing a cost effective adapter for the PLCC device and figuring out the very complex logic and PCB required. I'm working towards a realtime version as well, but it's a slow and tedious process understanding the H8/53x processor as it's been discontinued for some time. These CPU's utilize an ugly interfacing method when operating with an external ROM and finding development tools that allow firmware code generation has proven very difficult and expensive.

There are also 80 pin variants of this CPU and this is proving to be outrageously expensive and stupidly difficult to install as there is no available plug and socket for this style of chip. But I'm working with a specialized manufacturing engineering company to come up with a solution at a price people can afford and install. This will not be for the faint of heart. Installers will need access/experience in SMD electronics.

By the looks of things I should also be able to offer a daughterboard to suit the H8/536 family of processor - like the TB45 Patrol, Stagea and GTR. These things ALSO come in a tiny 80 pin package, just to make things harder. After some difficulty, I've downloaded a TB45 rom image and am currently working on a 2nd board to suit these.

I will upload a few pictures when I have my main PC back online - It's suffered from the dreaded capacitor plague, but considering it's been on for over 7 years 24/7 (60,000+hrs !!), that's not too bad a run.

Stu

Matt
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Re: R33 Type 6 boards

Postby Matt » Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:59 am

Hey Stu

Sounds good. I'm sure S1 Stagea owners will love you for this since there is no proper solution for those vehicles and I get a lot of enquiries (as well as R33 owners, and any one who has a AT model cannot use R32/Z32 ECUs). Looking forward to seeing these when they are available

skyline_stu
Posts: 151
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Location: Wide Bay Queensland

Re: R33 Type 6 boards

Postby skyline_stu » Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:29 am

Here's an update and some pictures as promised.

I have several prototype PCB's being fabbed. They will take about 5 weeks before I see them. They are very complex to manufacture and expensive in small quantities. I've got the Type6 running extremly well on the R33 RB25 ECU's. I'm now on the lookout for other ECU's to do these for - specifically the R33 GTR's, Nissan Patrol TB45 ( I have a rom images but want ECU's to do testing on) - or any ECU that use the H8-534 or H8-536 CPU. If you've got an ECU that you may be interested in adding a realtime board to, why not send me a picture and I'll be able to tell you what's available and when.

The board shown is for proof of concept - it's slightly bigger than credit card (54x98mm).
Production boards will look 1000% better, with proper solder mask, silk screening, use suitable grade components and be gold plated for durability. I will post new pictures as soon as the PCB's arrive arrive.

There could be an option for rom board versions, but with the availability of a realtime board, why go that route ? - and they'd cost more to produce requiring more pcb area for the bigger sized chips !

I'm working on an interface which will allow people to stock some boards and re-program them with their current base image programmer. As I've said before, fitting these will be the hardest part - if you've had trouble removing eproms, this is a whole new ball game, The conformal coat soaks under the PLCC (which makes chipquick still hard to use), the tracks are very delicate and all too easy to rip off, and installing the plcc socket is just a one chance deal.
Attachments
20131103_041605.jpg
Type 6 Board in ECU
20131103_041605.jpg (878.5 KiB) Viewed 5329 times
TYPE6-SCREENSHOT.jpg
Type 6 Screen Shot - not sure why the image went crazy
TYPE6-SCREENSHOT.jpg (1.27 MiB) Viewed 5329 times

Matt
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Re: R33 Type 6 boards

Postby Matt » Sun Nov 03, 2013 1:50 pm

Excellent work with the adaptor there! Its a better alternative to the pins which techtom were using. Those things were very difficult to install.

So you hand soldered the PLD in that form factor? Pins very close together!

(I think you went down to a 256 colour image when doing the save which lost some colours and turned white to black)

skyline_stu
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Re: R33 Type 6 boards

Postby skyline_stu » Sun Nov 03, 2013 5:15 pm

Yes Matt, I believe that all those darn pins that TT used were one reason responsible for the high cost of their boards. Such a PITA to fit..

The logic devices have been hand installed on all the prototypes.
It's been a bit of fun to not only make the boards with 0.25mm tracks but also soldering the 144 closely spaced 0.25mm pins.
The right SMD equipment makes it more enjoyable, but without a solder mask it's a lot more touchy.
The soldermask I've been trying takes too long to cure under my 400w UV lamp (can ya say instant sunburn)
This then causes a lack of resolution and it seems to wash off during the development phase. The manufacturer recomends
to start with a 1.2kW lamp for 90 seconds!!

I've been using a photolithographic approach with excellent results, the small test board has tracks starting at 20 thou/mil (0.5mm) right
down to 2x2's !! (0.05mm tracks with 0.05mm spaces). The camera has made it look worse than the gem it really is. The tracks are all solid and repeatable.
It's of limited use unless i want to make/use
A: Strain gauges
B: BGA chips or
C: Start making my own IC's !!.
I use the same photoresist as semiconductor manufacturers do.

Drilling all the via holes by hand was a real bitch. I think I drilled several thousand 0.4mm holes. Getting registration over 4 boards tool some effort.
All with no broken drills. Remember the pics I sent you a long while back of the very tiny pins?? They work a treat with my 'sandwich style' prototyping technique.

Stu
Attachments
20131103_155436.jpg
20131103_155436.jpg (2.9 MiB) Viewed 5321 times

skyline_stu
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Re: R33 Type 6 boards

Postby skyline_stu » Tue Nov 05, 2013 7:07 am

Now for the Stagea owner and any 80 pin H8 processor family -

Here's a 3D render of the QFP to PLCC adapter to allow use of the new Type6 board. This adapter will allow you to simply plug in the Type 6 after fitting this masterpiece..

This PCB was not an easy task considering the small sizes involved and will be plenty of fun to install.. Boards are on order

Stu
Attachments
tqfp_breakout-rev1_3.jpg
QFP adapter
tqfp_breakout-rev1_3.jpg (157.57 KiB) Viewed 5292 times

Bgtym
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Re: R33 Type 6 boards

Postby Bgtym » Wed Nov 20, 2013 7:11 pm

skyline_stu wrote:Now for the Stagea owner and any 80 pin H8 processor family -

Here's a 3D render of the QFP to PLCC adapter to allow use of the new Type6 board. This adapter will allow you to simply plug in the Type 6 after fitting this masterpiece..

This PCB was not an easy task considering the small sizes involved and will be plenty of fun to install.. Boards are on order

Stu

great job. why not make an adapter for external memory (EEPROM) for H8\534. such payment will be in great demand.
Image

skyline_stu
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Re: R33 Type 6 boards

Postby skyline_stu » Wed Nov 20, 2013 8:30 pm

My Type6 boards do exactly that, but allow realtime tuning using Nistune's awesome front end. As a matter of fact, my type6's started out life as a rom board. I considered seling a rom board, but you need emulators, cabling and the knowledge to tune them correctly. By using Nistune, the job is faster and easier with less trouble.

If needed, I can also descramble your Techtom board and provide a programming adapter board that would allow you to use an emulator.

But your ECU would need to come here to Australia for decoding and installation.

Stu

Bgtym
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Re: R33 Type 6 boards

Postby Bgtym » Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:05 am

skyline_stu wrote:My Type6 boards do exactly that, but allow realtime tuning using Nistune's awesome front end. As a matter of fact, my type6's started out life as a rom board. I considered seling a rom board, but you need emulators, cabling and the knowledge to tune them correctly. By using Nistune, the job is faster and easier with less trouble.

If needed, I can also descramble your Techtom board and provide a programming adapter board that would allow you to use an emulator.

But your ECU would need to come here to Australia for decoding and installation.

Stu

s Photo not on my ECU. can be a cheaper version for external EEPROM board 28pin. and self-installation boards, as forwarding ECU takes time. Will announce list of prices.
sorry for my english)))

skyline_stu
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Re: R33 Type 6 boards

Postby skyline_stu » Thu Nov 21, 2013 7:56 am

EEPROM version of the Type6 was considered but
1) Bare PCB would cost more to make as it is bigger in size.
2) You loose advantages of realtime consult tuning, unless using an Ostrich(extra cost if you don't have one)
3) 28 pin eprom or flash chip is more expensive to buy, more tools needed to burn chip - EPROM Programmer, UV eraser.
4) Self install IS an option, but you need surface mounting equipment to remove existing CPU and fit new socket to ECU. It is easy to damage the ECU PCB.
5) Removal of a techtom romboard and fitting descrambler is not an easy job - they use a special plug and socket and scramble codes are unique to dealer, so decoder the board needs to be made different each time.

Type6 cost will be AU$470 + $100 fitting. All up, costs about the same as doing a Z32 ecu conversion after buying a Z32 ECU.

Stu

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Re: R33 Type 6 boards

Postby Matt » Thu Nov 21, 2013 12:00 pm

Are those prices ex-GST? Here we would need to add another 10% if I need to put GST on top

I currently quote Z32 ECU installs $550 posted including GST ($240 Type 2, $60 install, $170 Z32 ECU plus 10% GST plus $20 postage in AU)

skyline_stu
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Location: Wide Bay Queensland

Re: R33 Type 6 boards

Postby skyline_stu » Fri Nov 22, 2013 6:41 pm

Perhaps I should have been clearer with the pricing.

A Type6 board comes in at $470 inc GST
Fitting would be $110 inc GST
Post's the same, $20 in Oz, other destinations are slightly higher depending on options.

It's still cheaper and better than any aftermarket ECU, which costs twice as much and still requires installation and tuning.

Stu

P.S. Missed the postie today, I think my 1st run of boards are here. I'll try the post office in the morning and see if I can get em.

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Re: R33 Type 6 boards

Postby Matt » Sat Nov 23, 2013 10:05 am

Okay $527 ex-GST for overseas customers plus postage

skyline_stu
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Re: R33 Type 6 boards

Postby skyline_stu » Sun Jan 12, 2014 7:40 am

Here's a quick update on the Type 6's.

Unfortunately, there's a slight 'technical' delay on the public release.
My prototype's are tried and tested, unfortunately it appears I've been sold a batch of dud/counterfeit logic devices for my production run.

All R33 RB25's will be supported straight away once the dodgy chip issue solved.
The latest firmware also fixes an ugly issue with control flags not being sent when in tuner mode.
The Stagea ECU's will be available shortly. I'm working on making these easier to install

I'm trying to locate H8/534 & 536 ecu's at the moment to further my R&D. If you've one gathering dust, I'd be very interested in having a loan to test out the hardware.
Matt's been VERY helpful in supplying a box full of R33 ecu's (Thanks again Matt)

I've an R33 RB26 unit going out for testing next week so I'll keep everyone posted.

It looks like I will also develop a 'plug in' Realtime solution for you diehard Techtom owners. Your ECU needs to be sent to me as I'll need to descramble it first. Every TT board I've seen so far has had a different encryption scheme used. :(

I'm still finalizing the image programmer adapters for the workshops out there. I'm trying to keep the adapter cost to a minimum and make it easy to use.


Stu

P.S. With the latest Nistune V1.0 we now have hi-speed consult communications, over 25% faster for better map tracing.
At this time I have NOT confirmed if this will cause issues with inter-module communications.
Attachments
20140112_054317_resized.jpg
Type 6 for R33/R34/Patrol. Nistune compatible
20140112_054317_resized.jpg (1.7 MiB) Viewed 4886 times
20140112_054241_resized.jpg
Type 6 for Stagea (QFP80 processor)
with QFP adapter. Nistune compatible
20140112_054241_resized.jpg (1.52 MiB) Viewed 4886 times

bachig24u
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Re: R33 Type 6 boards

Postby bachig24u » Tue Apr 01, 2014 6:31 pm

Hi Stu,
is the 24U00 ecu from an RB26 R33 on the list of compatibility?
How is the public release coming along?


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